We are also workers. As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. And I agree with this. But I know the principles are the same. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. And I would especially like to thank Jeff S for demonstrating how to explain and defend in great charity Calvinism and why he holds to those beliefs. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Howard Hendricks 20. 96:3; John 17:1 ). God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? Groovy, man. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. Alexander Maclaren 15. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. We often find it difficult to tolerate uncertainty, so we do anything to avoid that. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. The Bible says they are. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. @ Jeff S: And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. What content does your faith have? +++++++++++++++++. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Neither is TULIP. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Glad to have someone who gets my background! Anyway, just a plug for the traditional anabaptists if someone is looking for an evangelical experience that is not Calvinist or pastor-ruled (you have to check each Mennonite church out, some can be very old-school with head coverings, but the modern ones arent at all). Its a tough line to walk, though. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. Hes big enough. Plus I had never heard of tongues). I would more readily believe it of idiots like Mahaney, but, again, no one is infallible. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). Can they wrestle with it on their own? As Ive said, I dont even like the word Calvinist. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . You have nothing to do with it. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) Dee blast from the past! Most churches teach Arminian theology. The Bible? Dark times. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. . I spent quite a while in these neo-Calvinist, Piper, hipster fundamentalist, etc. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. Yes, some would slip away. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Jeff S, *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. We do better together than we do on our own. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. The promises are over the top. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. God forbid. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. It sounds to me like a generation of bloggers has mainstreamed hyper-Calvinism. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Does not compute. I have read extensively within the Calvinist system by approved authors including Calvin, himself, Grudem, Sproul, Piper, etc. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. We have a question for you? And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. 1) That article. But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. There is one more point that I do want to make, though. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. I try to keep debates in check on the blog and steer away from them as my blog is supposed to be a safe place. I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. (I mean, Star Trek?). Pg 75 Let me backtrack. But the rest of the bad stuff? And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. It's not mine. And I am fully expecting at least one learned, reformed MAN to give me a tongue lashing. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. . I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. Pardon me if I show my bias toward breastfeeding and please indulge me a bit. 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. The list consists of 89 members. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. Ann. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. Is proud of you. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. CALVIN! Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. That was pretty much the last straw for me. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. Association of Related Churches God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways @ Daisy: I know. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. After all, you could be wrong. I think I stated why above. Today I am addressing a post to non-Calvinists and will do the same for Calvinists on Monday. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Excellent work! Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. Might we call what youre describing love? Enter fatalistic determinism. Each Christmas, I am thankful that God works in mysterious ways. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times.