For the Top 5 you have listed, what manufacturers offer a complete rifle in those calibers? At 1000 yards a .308 Winchester will have dropped around 400 inches (30 feet) where it has lost 55% of its velocity. unfair comparison, Hornady makes a 139 grain BTSP for the 7mm mag very flat shooter, Great info, thanks for your difficult work. Before we check that out, lets give a nod to the 240 Wby. Jim, I had to calculate this one out, as Weatherbys ballistics charts dont go past 500 yards. p.s. Generally, traditional Weatherby Magnum cartridges perform slightly better than their Winchester or Remington magnum counterparts. Richard Mann was born and raised in West Virginia and has hunted from the Montana mountains to the green hills of Africa. Wondering if anyone can find anything flatter within that range, suitable to kill a whitetail deer with? Death in the Long Grass: A Big Game Hunter's Adventures in the African Bush .by Peter H. Capstick, Dino Paravano, Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders (Volume 1) Paperback, The Complete Guide to Hunting, Butchering, and Cooking Wild Game: Volume 1: Big Game, Horn of the Hunter: The Story of an African Safari Kindle Edition, Use Enough Gun: On Hunting Big Game Hardcover, Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail: Upland Birds and Small Game from Field to Feast Hardcover March 1, 2018, The Easy Venison Cookbook: 60 Simple Recipes for Deer, Elk, and Moose Kindle Edition. Based on the 7.6239/220 Russian cartridge case, the Valkyrie changes the personality of the AR-15. Every rifle is different. Another and even better option for reaching out to a big game animal with an AR15 is the 6.5 Grendel. Recoil is negligible, making it a great option for hunter with sensitive shoulders. No exotics just yet, theyll come later. And it gets there with a lot less powder the either of the two Weatherbys. The article has really peaked my interest. Great job. It combined flat-shooting ballistics with hard-hitting bullets in a package with lighter recoil than the .300 Weatherby Magnum, which debuted in 1944. My take away on all this number crunching? Join F&S+ to read exclusive stories by your favorite writers. With its rebated rim and 1/2-inch diameter at the base, it is essentially a longer version of the 6.5284 Norma; ballistically equivalent to the .264 Winchester Magnum. The flattest-shooting popular rifle cartridge at 1,000 yards is the 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, followed by the .26 Nosler, the .28 Nosler, the .22 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 Weatherby RPM. Take a look at the MPBR column and note how close they all are. So it Im guessing to summarise it doesnt really matter what you shoot as long as you know distance to target & your maths Barrel length will change MV. It will push a 90-grain Fusion bullet to 500 yardswhich is probably the limit for . Its very clear that you went through a huge amount of work to pull all of this info together. But you wouldnt want to hunt with it. Any cartridge that drops less than 40 inches at 500 yards or close to 200 inches at 1000 yards should be considered a flat shooting cartridge. Nope, pretty much matches a 308Win to 500 yards. So it ends up being a very fair comparison. The .277 bullet earns a lower B.C. I would think this data is slightly skewed unless the bullets are shot out of the same length of barrels and the same practices of reloading. As for targeting game at extreme distances, yes, I realize there are thousands of dedicated, well-trained long range shooters who are as good at 1,000 yards as many of us are at 500 yards and some of us at 200 yards. of energy at that distance more than enough to drop a deer humanely. Hornady 123-grain SST at 2580 fps. With the highest BC bullets, the 26 Nosler remains supersonic beyond 1,750 yards. The advent of precision rifle competitions and the laser rangefinder has increased the publics desire to go long. Faster velocities mean flatter trajectories. Not to mention the different variations in grains in each individual caliber,Ogive and BC. Its biggest disadvantage, in some people's opinion, is .25 caliber bullets have low BCs. A 10 mph right angle wind at 500 yards can divert even a fast, high B.C. A highly accurate, easy to shoot rifle with a flat trajectory will make for confident hunting. Also, I used something called G1 B.C. With those thoughts in mind, it is easy to see why the 26 Nosler, 28 Nosler and the 6.5300 Weatherby Magnums are the best flat-shooting cartridges offered to rifle shooters today. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. I wonder if you could possibly make that load available to me, so I can compare which loads are the best? Before we check that out, let's give a nod to the 240 Wby. Underwood Ammos 110-grain Lehigh Controlled Chaos bullet at 2800 fps is another great option. Considered by many to be the optimum long-range, large-game cartridge, the .300 Winchester Magnum has proven itself worldwide. These are all under my extreme heading, because theyre all brutal on cost and recoil. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. Nevertheless, flat shooting cartridges have long fascinated hunters and driven cartridge development and sales. Not only are new loads being offered, new ARs and even bolt action rifles for the Grendel are being introduced. Nosler is loading the 27 with their famous AccuBond, which is one of the best big-game bullets ever crafted. It would help one decide on if a cartilage was up to a specific task and if one would be willing to take the kick. If the 300 RUM surprises you, know that it surprised me, too. numbers which are not quite as accurate as G7 numbers in predicting trajectories of todays wildly long, sleek bullets. rating, that 100-grain bullet is hanging in there. projectiles begins to add up and they shoot flatter at extreme range. Dear Adriel, please be so kind to provide statistics on the following calibers as well: .45-70 shoots like a Rainbow compared to even a Win 30-30. A big 7mm like the 7rum can put a 140 with nearly a .500 bc downrange at over 3500 fps or a 120 with about a .400 bc in the 3600+ fps range. The .308 Winchester round shoots pretty flat out to 200 yards when it starts to drop. Just wondering where the 300 win mag ends up? The Creedmoor carries more velocity and energy downrange with less recoil than any other factory cartridge. It's muzzle v. If it makes you feel better to hate the 6.5 Creedmoor, go ahead. What do you guys think . bullet twice that far. Below is the information Ive gleaned from 17-caliber through 338. Required fields are marked *. flat-shooting, and light recoiling cartridge was extremely effective on deer-sized game. I work at a very large and popular firearms dealer, and I have sold dozens (if not hundreds) if the 6.5, but I havent sold 1, or had anyone even ask about the top 3 in this list. How can I get all the data in a spread sheet form like you showed in your video? The best varmint rifles are capable of accurate, repeated medium to long range shots from a fixed position, and are usually found in light, fast calibers that have a flat trajectory. Ditto the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5-300 Wby. The 26 and 28 Nosler as well as the 6.5300 Weatherby Magnum all utilize heavy for caliber bullets with high ballistic coefficients that are stabilized by barrels with fast twist rates. during their trips downrange. Both are of course bolt-action rifle cartridges. The flattest-shooting cartridges usually have Nosler or Weatherby in their name, and the top three flat-shooting cartridges were created by those respected companies. Obviously Weatherby and Nosler, but are there other manufacturers, vendors, builders to consider? The new Federal Premium, 130-grain Terminal Ascent load with a muzzle velocity of 2825 fps shoots flat and the bullet is tough enough to handle up close impacts while still delivering good expansion at distance. It will be built on a stiller predator action, carbon wrap or #4 fluted stainless at 26 inches. Sign up with your email address to receive news and updates. The 6.5300 Weatherby magnum, as its name suggests, is based on the 300 Weatherby mag and has a case capacity of 98 grains of water. What Is The Best Hunting Cartridge To 500 yds. Good points, which are all things Ive considered. bullet faster than did the larger volume 30-378 Wby. Best Ive been able to do is run ballistic charts on many combinations, knowing that muzzle velocity is of major importance and bullet B.C. As with Hornadys two recent 6.5 caliber introductions, it has found favor with long-range competitors, but also with hunters who like to hit at distance with heavy bullets. But if you can shoot this cartridge well, with its supersonic speed out beyond 1,650 yards, youre just about unstoppable at distance, and there are lots of factory loads and riflesaffordable and expensiveto choose from. = 3002 inches = 250 foot = 76m above target at 1000 yds now thats a challenge ! Good work mate. As soon as a projectile leaves the muzzle, the earths gravity instantly begins to affect the trajectory of the round. Most of the calculators out there show larger drop rates then your table. However, I have a question to ask you. 1.5" high at 100, would be dead-on at 250, and only drop 30" at 550. Its not all hype. There's currently no better option for the AR-15 when the range extends much past 500 yards. Aug 31, 2013. MPBR with a 150-grain spire point from a 308 Winchester might extend to 317 yards on an 8-inch target while a 300 RUM might push that same bullet to 373 yards. Surprisingly, even with all the extra recoil and muzzle blast, this cartridge will not shoot any flatter than most 6.5s. It will push a 90-grain Fusion bullet to 500 yardswhich is probably the limit for big game with this cartridgewhile still retaining enough velocity to initiate expansion. What a gentleman. It is a flat shooting cartridge, able to hit a target at 300 yards with negligible hold over. Also know that not all manufacturer-claimed B.C. It is capable of sending a 55-grain bullet from the muzzle at 3,700 fps. Thanks for the chart for bullet drop but for Big Game Hunting I would rather see the down range energy. Not a lot of difference in drops between the cartridges though; you need accurate yardage readings to get your drop correct. If Ive left out an obvious winner or near winner, write in and state your case. Another one or two probably should have made the original list. Our margin for distancing error at 700 yards just went from 12 yards with the 30-06 to 25 yards with the 30-378. lotsa guys on the internet claim 500 yards is no problem . I was surprised at the distance, so I asked my PH Thats just 155 yards? He got a stunned look on his face and said, No, TWO hundred fifty-five yards! Our miscommunication during the shot sequence didnt matter a bit, because I was shooting a .28 Nosler, which put the shot only 2.8 low at that distance. Enjoying many of your video\s whilst stuck in lockdown. What a great tool that you have built. If you like the idea of a six-five for going long, but hate the Creed and want something a bit different, the 6.5-284 Norma is the way to go. This lets you focus on having only one caliber to maintain. UPS has officially stopped shipping guns? And yes, the .223/5.56 even dominates that match. Here we go! Weatherbys By the way, while the 6.5-300 has been on the market just five years, Roy was shooting it in the mid-20th century. The wildly overbore 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum wins or places near the top of the flat-shooter podium at most ranges to at least 1,000 yards. Might be of interest and I have used the cartridge in a Ruger M77 with a 22 barrel. Yeah, 6.5s are all the rage, and their blinding popularity has taken some shine off the old .270, but the latter is still one of the very best long-range hunting cartridges. Hunters and shooters should also know that wind deflection of bullets is a more challenging part of hitting what you shoot at than is drop. Don't want it too heavy. I appreciate the kind comment. The 50 BMG is still supersonic past 1200 yards. Barrel twist rates spin the bullet out of the muzzle in a spiral much akin to a quarterback throwing a football. Now if you pulled all of your data from Nosler and they shot their bullets out of the same length of barrel then I would trust the ballistics youre speaking of. A relatively flat-shooting cartridge, hunters with skill regular make shots out to 400 and 500 yards with the cartridge on small gamesome hunters even farther. JavaScript is disabled. Although its going to be easier to estimate drop for a 700 yard shot with a 30-378, compared to a 30-06, you still need to range your animal within +/-25 yards using the 30-378 to hit vitals. For good reason. The rifle would be used for game to 600 yards (self imposed limit) up to the occasional Elk. Fast and flat shooting b#%ds. That's pretty dang flat. Developed form the military, Winchester . But the 7mm Remington Magnum will remain supersonic out to 1,400 yards or a bit more, making a good choice for cross-canyon hunting. again. I have a 27 3/4" barrel 264 Win mag that shoots 130 Accubonds 3350 fps with Retumbo. It propels a 17 Grain bullet at 2,550 feet per second. Recoil is stiff and some find it hard to master. 95% of your shots will be inside 500 yards, and probably 80% inside 300. . The reason why 6.5mm cartridges are exploding in popularity is because they are ultra-efficient. The 26 Nosler cartridge was designed with the high ballistic coefficient (B.C.) Misjudging a 5mph crosswind as 8mph will make a 5.3 difference at 500yd with my favorite varmint load (BC0.400/MV3,400). Drop is constant at the gravitational pull of 32 feet per second accelerating at 32 fps. The 220 Swift would be my pick for coyotes, rodents, and probably pronghorn if it werent for the wind deflection issue. Heres a chart from my Popular Hunting Cartridges Compared article. Surely this is 42.9 just over a meter? Thats what makes a long-range hunters heart go pitter patter, and its what has kept Weatherby in business since 1945. Should you have other helpful info, please send it to me by email: [emailprotected]. It's still possible to get factory ammo for the cartridge, but current production .223 WSSM ammo normally uses heavier 50 or 55 grain bullets at . Thanks for your hard work and entertaining videos, your passion shines through! Your email address will not be published. After Weatherbys 6.5-300 Magnum did not win as many hearts and minds as theyd hoped, Weatherby rethought the 6.5mm cartridge and developed the 6.5 RPM (Rebated Precision Magnum). Great work here. Shots are usually quick. I was surprised the 308 warbird was not included with the 208gr or 212gr bullet. The muzzle velocity is a plus in windy conditions, with the bullet arriving on target with minimal drift. Could you add a little explanation of why/how twist/spin rate make any given bullet/velocity shoot flatter? So its not like the flattest shooting rifle gives you a lot more leeway on ranging errors for super long range shots. I love that you have gone above and beyond here and I see tremendous value in this knowledge. So dont assume that youll be shooting the worlds flattest rifle cartridge and bullet until youve verified your MV and bullet B.C. Most fall close to the .22 caliber bullet range, and can dip down to .17 caliber and up to .264 (6.5 mm). great to see bullet drops and equate them in inches of drop brings home the reality of how much impact good old gravity has on ballistics.even with the flattest cartridges still aiming the height of a house above the target @1000 yds (Curiosity? Great chart and thanks for what must have been an incredible amount of work. It is not always the caliber that is in question. I've been looking at the .257 weatherby that drops about 34" with a 100gr bullet at 500 yards and the .22-250 is another at around 36" with a 50gr bullet. Pronghorn hunters have driven the search for flatter shooting cartridges for a long time. The company set out to push the limits with this thing, designing it as a flat-shooting 6.5mm cartridge with performance capable of taking full advantage of the newest long-range shooting reticles used in today's scopes. http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator, 338 Lapua with a 300 grain projectile (you can run 250s in the Lapua as well, but most run a 300). He just never made it official. When a bullet is fired, many forces are immediately working against it: gravity, wind, and atmospheric drag. Depending on the caliber you are using, a long-range shooting may be at 1,000 and more yards, but if you are committed to rimfires than 200-300 yards is very long-distance shooting. Normas 180-grain BondStrike Extreme at 3,084 fps is new and very flat-shooting. But, as an extreme range competition shooter recently told me, the number of cold barrel, first round hits he sees at 1,000 yards in competition is well below 50%. Choosing the flattest shooting rifle cartridge in each caliber category seems fair, fun, and revealing, so well do that before identifying the all time top dog. It was introduced in 1962 and essentially knocked the .264 Winchester Magnum several notches down on the popularity list after hunters and shooters put the 7mm Mag to the test. JOHN BUOL Preferred Caliber For 500 To 1,000 Yards And Beyond: 5.56mm NATO. numbers are accurate. Of course, the .270 Win was developed in 1925 when 1000 yard shots were effectively unheard of. Not sure if the OP is considering them or not. Its clear that flat shooting is directly proportional to overbore. The Chey-Tac M200 Intervention is the bolt-action rifle built to handle this round, and shooters have been documented firing a group of 3 shots within 16 inches at 2,321 yards. Want to run your own ballistics numbers? You can argue that you can get the 243 WSSM shooting flatter, but that cartridge is already considered obsolete. This old timer remains a phenomenon, flat-shooting and effective. Precision, varmint, big-game, and dirt cheap NATO surplus ammo for plenty of cheap shooting. Up until that time, there had only really been two .277-caliber hunting cartridgesthe .270 Winchester and the .270 Weatherbyso the .270 WSM was almost immediately popular. Cheers. A good hunting cartridge has to fit in a rifle thats comfortable to carry all day and wont kick you so hard that you cant shoot it well. Perhaps you, dear reader, can provide the formula! Your email address will not be published. When you havent time to engage a laser rangefinder, knowing you can reach the kill zone with a dead-center hold at any distance out to 373 yards is pretty comforting. All the following data was computer generated as if all loads were fired from a (simulated) dead flat (level) barrel, so these are pure drops. For example a 308 dropping 429 at 1000 yards is ridiculous, thats 10 meters! You cant pull data from different sources with different lengths of barrels and different loading methods and expect to get true results. 500-yard drop: 45 inches (based on a 100-yard zero). This cartridge existed in a cloak of obscurity for a long time; only recently have hunters began to see the potential it offers. Thank you. One argument for a flat-shooting cartridge is that it covers mistakes. Hornady Precision Hunter 212-grain ELD-X at 2,860 fps. Its trajectory is awesome. They have 1 particular cartridge thats something of a hot-shot for flat shooting, long distance devastation; the Weatherby .30-378. Somehow stumbled onto this article. A rifle is suitable for flat shooting as long as the 500-yard impact range of the rifle falls below the 40''. However, I fully admit that that a flat shooting cartridge is not nearly as important as a cartridge which is resistant to wind deflection. Most shots are taken at short range, but some experienced marksmen with good rifles, known distances, and good conditions may need to make connections at longer distances. The result of this work was a flat shooting and hard hitting sniper cartridge with 200 to 400 yards of extended reach compared to the 7.62mm M118. With the 30-06, we can only overcome 12 yards of ranging error at the same range before we miss the 6 of vitals. Often theyre inflated. At 500 yards even the flattest shooting rounds are going to be dropping somewhere around 30". It just murders your shoulder, ears, and pocketbook at the same time . Think 30-30 necked down to a .25 cal. What are the best long-range cartridges: .22-250 Remington .308 Winchester .300 Winchester Magnum .338 Lapua Magnum .300 Weatherby Magnum 6.5 Creedmoor 6.5-284 Norma 26 Nosler It nearly matches the ballistics of the Winchester Magnum, but does so in rifles with faster-twist barrels and modern powders that extend barrel life. This newer Weatherby 6.5 combines plenty of gas with manageable recoil. Mag., according to Noslers Handloading Guide 9. Just curious have you ever looked at the 284 Winchester for flat shooting. Still, if youre goal is to push heavy projectiles to the outer reaches, Noslers 28 may be the best 7mm option out there. Muzzle velocity certainly makes a difference in how fast the bullet reaches the target, but it is by no means the only factor to consider. Not many of us can afford the ammo, let alone the rifles and scopes that chamber it, in such calibers as 375 CheyTac, 408 CheyTac, or 416 Barrett. The longer the bullet is in the air, the longer gravity can pull on the object. I dont get it. What do you guys think the flattest shooting caliber would be for hunting I have heard 6.5x284 but the bullet CE appears better on a 270. [wd_leadmagnet type="dressing"] Like the 26 Nosler, the 28 is based on the 404 Jeffery case and will remain supersonic out past 1,750 yards. Target Rifle- Caliber Question. I still shoot a .270 caliber cartridge and the same 150gr bullet, but with a 3gr powder charge boost. We like the 257 STW we're loading 115 gr bullets around 3600fps with 1/2" groups.We can run it hotter and a Berger vld would be pretty flat. I noticed in your video that your chart also listed energy and recoil. A 100-grain .243 bullet with a G1 ballistic coefficient around .400 at a muzzle velocity of 2,960 carries just over 800 foot-pounds of energy at 500 yards. Excellent work!! This is the allure and benefit of a flat shooting bullet. You are cordially invited to any of our matches. This lead-free copper monolithic, fragmenting hollow-point Liberty Ammunition round is the next generation of one of the most popular hunting and long range rounds in existence. I prefer larger calibers for elk, but the .270 is perfectly adequate for elk, and I have personally used it for elk all the way to 400 yards with no problems. Below is a chart indicating the three best flat-shooting cartridges and their muzzle velocity, drop, energy levels, and felt recoil. Take another look. It started with the .30/30 and continued with the .30/06 and .308 and right up to todays .300 Blackout. Richard Mann Great information! The .223 Remington will easily take care of any varmint out to around 500 yards, but at extreme distances loses its punch. All are welcome. Therefore my velocity is up to around 3175fps, BC .434 G1 and the 500 yard drop is 23 with a 300 yard zero sight in. Do you have any of the data on the weight of the bullets, the brand of the bullets, the BC, any of the information related to the data youre posting? always means more wind deflection. At 300 yards, the hold over (assuming a 250 yard zero) is only 2.6 inches. Caliber Flattest Shooting Load BC; 7mm R Mag: Hor 139 gr InBd HvMag.480: 270 WSM (1) Fed 130 gr Nosler BT.428: 300 Win Mag: Hor 150 gr InBd . You can't go wrong with a .308 for a 500 yard rifle. Hello Jim, rating) driven more slowly. Even the heaviest Weatherby factory load (120-grain Partition) leaves the muzzle at 3,305 feet per second and retains 1,221 foot-pounds of energy at 500 yards. But it's still a better distance choice than the .270 Winchester past 400 yards (a great caliber as well). The first category will include cartridges with a +/- 3" maximum point blank range (MPBR) of greater than 270 but less than 300 yards. 4/1/2016. Always be open to new possibilities. I blog often and I truly appreciate your content. Id consider a base of: Among these cartridges, the 25-06 offers the highest MPBR (Mean Point Blank Range) or the max distance that you can adjust a scope to and be +-3 with the most common bullet weights per caliber. A flat shooting cartridge matters. With the popularity of this cartridge due to America's favorite rifle, the AR15, more and more people are stretching the . ), Hornadys Precision Hunter 178-grain ELD-X at 2,600 fps is probably the best long-range option, but look also at the new 168-grain Berger Hybrid Hunter load from Federal, RELATED: 6.5 Creedmoor vs. .308 Winchester. I am curious to see how it does for a 22 that can push any bullet weight made for it. However, the .50BMG bullet will reach the target with 143 less drop than the 6.5 Creedmoor, because it has more mass which leads to a higher BC, and that higher BC given the same velocity, makes it slow down less during flight. I have found that when talking about these large caliber hunting rounds, there is not a tremendous difference in bullet drop. Now I have some facts for my creedmoor pal to chew on. Both are 338-378 Wby. What bullet weight did you select for the .270 Winchester? It makes for easy reading in an \all in one place\ comparison, rather than spending time trying to find this data all over the internet. Indeed, some deer also live in places where a 50-yard shot is much more likely than a 500-yard shot. However, the .220 Swift and the .22-250 have been used to take deer out to distances a lot of folks got no business shooting, for a long, long time. That said, average shots on mule deer are often longer than what most hunters typically encounter on eastern whitetail hunts. With a recent elevated popularity, due in no small part to the rise of the six-fives, the Grendel is now getting the attention it deserves. I'm not a huge fan of basing my decisions on bullet energy. Thus, the .50BMG drops less at 1,000 yards than the 6.5 Creedmoor. The good news is that these bullets might shoot even a tad flatter than these numbers indicate. Its just human nature to celebrate and admire the biggest, bestest, and flattest. The 6 mm ARC flattens the curve, and as a 2020 introduction, it could be nicknamed the "Corona Cartridge." . (-200) This means we can first determine the fastest cartridge in each caliber, then compare it against the fastest in others. Hornady's ELD line of bullets is considered the most precisely made, and the flattest shooting for any specific caliber. Its bullets will remain supersonic out past 2,000 yards. Yes I know its a barrel burner but so is the 300RUM and others on the list. A bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. The non-bonded bullet should deliver good terminal performance up close and at distance. Since nearly all long-distance shooters today use a laser rangefinder, does it even matter which cartridges shoot the flattest? modifies results at some point. I also appreciate the realistic exposition of the relevant comparison between effects of flat-shooting cartridge vs judging cross-wind! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Save big on firearms, accessories, tactical gear, clothing, and ammunition from now until March 29. Right now, shooters are obsessed with flat-shooting rifle cartridges. Enforcermj, Im not sure if your comment is sarcastic or not. Just curious if you included the 300 Norma or maybe I missed it. Youre going to miss with any flat shooting cartridge out there and with a perfectly accurate rifle. RELATED: How the Brand-New 27 Nosler Revives the .277. Again, I, as well as so very many other folks Im certain, am very grateful! Thoughts on this? Thursday nights they do IDPA. The URSA gongs are 37 inches round and if you get 4 out of 10 you advance in 500 yard increments. Sign up for Field & Streams newsletter to receive the latest and greatest gear reviews and expert hunting and fishing advice. . 1. . Thanks Will! Top muzzle velocities with the same combination of powder, primer, and bullet can vary by 100 to 200 fps. Thats comparing apples to apples with the others up above, using a 6 vitals zone.