Membership Covenants Click below for times and locations: Learn More Stronger Men's Bible Study 6am on Tuesdays | March 7th - April 11th, 2023 | All Campuses I just took a year of online classes at one of them. stephen is suffering for doing right. Are they involved in a joint venture? Ok, so i am seeing that a lot of people do not like this church. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. That is certainly not an idea they got from the Bible. pastor says: the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. Do my eyes deceive me? http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/31866. Maybe six months from now, therell be another terrible story, and well know that the BSd us. They are used to being believed no matter what they say. The Washington Post published the following headline last Sunday: Controversial preacher Mark Driscoll stripped from megachurch Hillsong conference lineup link. The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. Watch LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm, and 7pm as well as every Wednesday at 7pm. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they havent asked for forgiveness? I dont equate it with forgiveness at all. Some great insights there, Bob. Clear All United States - All Cities She was warned not to work with Agathos. It takes at least 6 months before you start seeing things clearly. But much of the Australian backlash has centred around Mr Driscoll's comments about women. Unless of course, they give up the celebrity/money/position and go into obscurity getting real jobs. . "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? Sometimes life circumstances have to kind of help people do the right thing. I noted in my comments on the petition that Driscoll still hasnt repented before all and specifically to the people whose lives he damaged, such as former Mars Hill elder/attorney Paul Petry, a godly, decent man. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they haven't asked for forgiveness? Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. They are showered with gifts and once you relinquish your highly prized contact data more gifts will follow to your home address. Good point as far as it goes. he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: He is a draw. Its appalling that through your words and actions you are able to re-injure the real victims with such ease all while smiling and chuckling on your stage. But what does that mean in the larger picture? An IRS spokesman in St. Louis would not comment when asked if a pastor could speak from the pulpit to encourage congregants to vote a particular way on an issue. Sovereign Grace Ministries Nancy If not, why not? We will definitely check it out. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. The Bible tells us lotz of neet stuff before it happen/happens. To tell, perhaps? 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. @ sam: Also, you dont want the sheep to get uppity. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. Mencken: No one in this world, so far as I know and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. pastors that use their position to wreck peoples lives arent expected to go to jail or show tears publicly and thats ok if its not warranted but it is very reasonable for people to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them to go back to influencing the lives of people. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. But I never want to deliberately post any false information so I do appreciate any corrections you can add. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. Even after becoming a believer he wanted more. Any of all of that may be true. I'm not sure I find that expansion of "serious sin" cheating? Again. . Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. Its really big in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles I think mainly because they are more predisposed to bad behavior (think TBN and Daystar whackos). And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. She came to me in sorrow that she walked away from a relationship with Agathos after that Mars Hill warning.. Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. (glorifies paul. Sorry, I dont know why I wrote that, Ive always thought of you as a him. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. stephen is going to be filled with the Holy Spirit. (mark doesnt say that stephen was already filled with the Holy Spirit, the bible doesnt mention stephen being filled at that time at all) pure in heart shall see God. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. ATB But I am surprised he delivered his message from on high the pulpit. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. Which is all to say that if he was a wanted man back in Jerusalem and the believers did not trust him, then some of the credit for his going away for a few years goes to those who did not let him just keep on keeping on, despite some abrupt lateral entry into proto-christianity. And these leaders present themselves as one thing but are deceiving people the entire time. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. It so important, huh, that we share that Jesus came to save us from sin, and to give us His life. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. Not that I think he failed to tell the truth. I have heard Marks message several times now and have some concerns. Return to homepage. By the way, what do you call a person who tells lies? Lydia wrote: Connect With Us! Like I said, I dont want to get into an argument here. @ Bridget: It is like embezzlers working around money. I suspect that process would take a bit longer with Driscoll hes a bigger mess. "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." Is there a third way that I have overlooked? Pun intended. https://www.youtube.com/watchv=i7lv9oMjv_0&sns=em&app=desktop. In case this was not a rhetorical question, Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community. as to revenue streams, Jesus paid His taxes with money a fish popped up with. ++++++++++++++++++. And he cant really do that if he keep holding on to the more sexist, frat boy type of Christianity that Neo Calvinists support that he was espousing at Mars Hill. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. Is this similar to Radical Chic? I tend to doubt it but who knows. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. In case this was not a rhetorical question, the correct answer is entertainment. Association of Related Churches . LOL! Thanks for the link i want to read more of the writers work. AFter the persecution and time in Antioch, Barnabus seems to make a decision on his own to go to Tarsus to find Paul. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. Youre not one of us. Its easy to be friendly, humble, attentive, polite, , to your peers and to your superiors. You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. Internet users are also shielded from much of GW reality. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. Don't you know that the way he behaved and treated people is no big deal? Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. of course i have no idea really what is driving mark driscoll but thats what i think it might be. The worship leaders are all carefully coached and choreographed on how to appear more worshipful and fake their collective ecstatic elation over being one with their maker. Why I did not run I do not know except I had a contract. These Pentecostals keep insisting that almost everything written on the internet about Mark Driscoll isnt even close to the truth. The following excerpt from that article caught my attention: "I do not want unnecessary distractions during our conference, particularly as this 30 minute interview was only a small part of this five day event," Mr Houston said in a statement. At a cash price of 2600 Denarii ($210,000 in Roman money) a book? http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, from reading rob smiths post about the orphanage Agathos in Africa being defunded by Marks Hill church and marks telling missionaries not to work with them it is clear where Matt Chandler got the idea. For a number of reasons Texans dont want to say bad things about a church no matter how many people are being hurt. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. You might be onto something there Sopy. (remembering marks sermon about mark being king) jesus is seated and he stands up for stephen. Because you worked with multiple megas you have a very diverse perspective that is invaluable. "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? Penalty Flag? But, as you said, there is no substitute for a work of the Holy Spirit. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. In many ways, Barnabus is like Pauls pastor for a time. I felt like an idiot after I said that. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? An awful lot of people are having to do the exact same thing. He returned to Maryland in March 1965, when he was assigned to an Assembly of God church in Cresaptown, just south of Cumberland. If I were Satan I would give the Wormwood who came up with that system a big raise (or give away their books so theyd get a fat royalty check ; ). Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. James River Kids is the children's ministry of James River Church. People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). (See screen shot from the church website. See here: As you all know, my family and I have been facing difficult trials and persecution. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. But in America, (to quote HUG) its all about the Benjamins, baby. I will post about this. Mr. Petry was fired and ordered to be excommunicated and shunned for his opposing Driscolls move to consolidate power in the church and not have Biblical accountability before the elders. Wow! IMO, They are still who they are. I think what became public is enough to realize they are not safe, not mature but toxic and have been all along. Guess well see. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. . Albuquerque Blue wrote: I believe they were simply behaving as their normal selves. they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. I think the guys a jerk and theres plenty of evidence out there for it. Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. Im a done for now but that one meeting made we wonder if I could someday find a narrow gate church like the cult expert said. One of the men had been to a conference in Seattle and was just wowed by his missional approach. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? As far as people moving into ministry later in life, one would hope they had left that life behind and were new creations in Christ. (if you heard anything on the internet its not true, mark scrubbed his site already so if its on the internet a bunch of liars wrote it) we dont want to shoot the wounded. Do these Pentecostal leaders believe that there is a doppelgnger out there who tied MD up in a basement then impersonated him, swearing and saying horrible things from the pulpit? Ches rise and fall occurred before I was born so Id sincerely appreciate any insight and correction. I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. In 2010, Outreach magazine listed James River as one of the fastest-growing churches in America. There will be a day of reckoning. The US pastor, who has courtedcontroversy for what has been dubbed his "more-macho-than-thou" brand of Christianity, resigned from his Seattle megachurch in October after being found "guilty of pride" as well as abusive, controlling and manipulative behaviour. jamesriver.org [email protected] (417) 581-5433; At James River Assembly we're focused.Upward in Worship, Inward in Commitment and Outward in Evangelism. Hillsongsfounder, Brian Houston, released a statement saying he did not want the 30-minute interview with Driscoll to distract from the larger five-day conference. Just like Jerry Springer would invite the Duggers on his show after the scandal? Mark Driscoll, thepreacher who stepped down from his Seattle megachurch in October 2014after being accusedof plagiarism, bullying and an unhealthy ego has beentrying to returnto some kind of speaking tourat Christian conferences. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. @ Abi Miah: The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? OZARK, Mo. I am thinking visitors, right? I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". He was not participating in stonings. None of them see anything wrong with this. There were a number of other worship songs that roll on after this one, if these are your taste. The text is not prescriptive. Houston was saying in his statement he was only just now finding out about some of Mark Driscolls more controversial statements, and that is due to the media. There is no glorifying God in any of that. And we in the real world of Jobs & Lives have to deal with the resulting Speshul Little Snowflakes. The worship leaders laugh about it. @ sam: I simply offer another perspective. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. Because cheap grace for Christians who are not decent people is all the rage now. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. I think older people ignored the bad boy Driscoll because he seemed to be reaching the young people. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. Lets see. It refers to protecting the King of Israel from physical harm, not preventing people from telling the truth. This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. i think that it worked quite well for Youth with a Mission for several years and then it went awry and i dont know the particulars of what happened. Members are guests? Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. Thats a great question to think about. Training ourselves to sense right from wrong based on the Word of God and empowered by the Holy Spirit will result in a clear conscience.. But we don't know yet for sure. But it would be encouraging if they did. Prayer Requests In a March 15 sermon, Lindell urged congregants to repeal Springfield's sexual orientation and gender identity law on April 7. I am still finding it hard to believe that Mr. Houston doesnt have access to Google, or some other search engine, in Australia. Driscoll was never really qualified to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the first place he proved that time and time again by his un-Christlike behavior in word and action. we see this in culture and politics all the time. Missouri church service Saturday evening. Returning so soon to the limelight reinforces the idea that it really is all about Mark. Sure, It is very reasonable for kind folK to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them (missive pastors) to go back to influencing the lives of the folks that they wish to shepherd. Video comes off to me as MD justifying his return to the pulpit. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. He is listening for your litl sweet voice! You make an interesting comparison. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. Then he stated emphatically: Now let me just say this to you today cause I have no apology for Mark being there; Im glad Marks here. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. Until that flaw is named and claimed, it is reasonable to expect this kind of thing to happen again. But we rarely hear about that. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. Who has wounded you? Mark' Driscoll's message has been uploaded on the church website, and we have included it here should you choose to watch it. No it wasnt, thanks for the insights. Posted by NancyAlcorn at 1:06 PM 2 comments. I know, that sounds horribly arrogant but I lacked it in buckets for years. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. News articles and such are also greatly appreciated. sometimes i have hurt people because i have gotten caught up in the excitement of a new orginazation or enterprise but i have never been able to stay that way long, my conscience pricks me until i stop and go back and make things right with people i have hurt. I can forgive someone even without an apology. I have heard Driscoll in person.. Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? here is a bit of what i could type out as he was speaking, would love to see a transcript of it instead of having to listen to it though. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. Im not kidding. I understand exactly how you feel if that helps. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm.